S1 EP27: JIM BRULÉ

"The right story told in the right way with an open heart can heal wounds and change lives."   Join me for this beautiful and profound interview with Jim Brulé - a story teller's story about his Life By Design!  A design that continues to expand and have a powerful impact on the world.  Jim is a MAGGID, a DEATH DOULA, and INTERFAITH CHAPLAIN with a career and educational foundation in the world of ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE as well as PSYCHOLOGY! Listen until the very end and see how YOUR Life By Design story might benefit from Jim's open hearted guidance and wisdom.

HOW TO CONNECT WITH JIM:
Websites: https://TransformationalStorytelling.org/ | https://LovingTransition.com/
Contact card: https://dot.cards/jimbrule
Join his email list: https://mailchi.mp/transformationalstorytelling/transformative-landing 

WHAT IS A DEATH DOULA?
https://www.webmd.com/palliative-care/features/end-of-life-death-doulas

NEUROSCIENCE SCHOLARLY + RESEARCH MATERIAL
https://spiritualneuroscience.org/neuroscience-scholarly-and-research-material/

Buy your copy of YOUR LIFE BY DESIGN: A Coffee With Nicoa Self-Care Coaching Journal
on Amazon today! 

Transcript

Nicoa Coach: 0:01

Grab your coffee and join me Nicoa For a caffeinated conversation about life. I'll be talking to people who have chosen to walk their own paths and just like me, are creating a life by design. I hope it will give you the inspiration you need to do exactly the same.

JIM BRULÉ: 0:24

Jim Brule, you are my guest on coffee with Nicoa. Thank you so much for being here. Oh, it's so great to be be with you. It's been a long time. It really has been a long time. And I think you and I actually work together at all scripts. I know scripts. And then we came together. Coach coachy. Right, I guess around 2018. Right. Something like that. Yeah. Right around them. That sounds about right. Yeah. I remember being so intrigued by your intent to have a unique and different life by design. So that's why when I thought of you the other day, I guess I saw you on on social media or something. And I thought, Jim, I've got to invite Jim, I've got to have Jim. And Dave, if you weren't online, right when I asked you and you're like

Nicoa Coach: 1:15

well, let me do a quick introduction for everybody who's listening today, and you sent me a nice summary. I'll try to highlight it. Now. I want to make sure I'm saying this properly. gymbaroo. Les, you are a mighty good, I did it. I got it. I'm a geek. And I'm a GUID is a transformational storyteller, right, based in the Jewish tradition. Is that correct? All right. Well, your summary here says that not only are you a monkeyed, and a storyteller, you are a teacher, you are a mentor. You have such a unique and diverse background. Your degrees are in clinical psychology and artificial intelligence, which is super interesting. Your online school that you created is called transformational storytelling. And you train spiritual storytellers from multiple traditions, to tell stories that inspire healing and spiritual growth. You are accredited by the National storytelling network. I love this so much. And I grew I grew up with so many storytellers, the fact that we can, we can create a business model to support the world at the same time mission driven is just so fulfilling. I think this is truly a unique life by design. There's another title that you carry, which I don't know if you know this, but my mother has the same title. Oh, yes. She and you are death, doulas. Yes. And I find that to be a profound role in life just like a birth doula, help someone bring life into the world in through that transition, not only supporting the birth mother, but the birth family, right? The den doula does the same as someone who's transitioning out of the world and, and, anyway, I'd love to hear how that period is formed for you. And you have also served on a number of boards. You're a part of the Northeast storytelling board as the president, you work with artists standing strong together, and the healing story Alliance. So obviously, this is not a new concept. There are people out there doing this work. And your motto, and everybody take a listen, this is beautiful. The right story, told in the right way with an open heart can heal wounds and change lives. And Jim, that's why I'm doing coffees with Nicoa. So yeah, let me kick it to you. And let's just start by asking you, based on your story, your life story, what is a life by design to you? Oh, my goodness, you know, I thought a lot about that.

JIM BRULÉ: 3:53

I've had a lot of different careers.

Nicoa Coach: 3:58

As someone else someone looking from the outside would say, you know, so I started off as a clinical psychologist, I work with teenagers and their families.

JIM BRULÉ: 4:09

I then got into artificial intelligence. And I started my own company, ran that for about 10 years. And then got into healthcare IT and and all that. But throughout that I've been storytelling. Each one of those careers was an opportunity for me to try and understand how somebody else was thinking and then retell their story either to themselves or to someone else, to make help everybody makes sense of it.

Nicoa Coach: 4:51

Like supporting a leader to help them influence others more effectively, right with understanding their where they're coming from.

JIM BRULÉ: 5:00

Yeah. And, you know, in the AI days, I was early, early in the AI days, we worked with these things called expert systems, which were trying to make decisions the way that humans made them, like doctors and chess players. Well, the only way to get that to happen is to ask somebody. Well, why did you do that? And most people don't know, you know, that they, you know, I don't know, because it was the right thing to do, you know? Yeah. So getting them to tell the story of how they came to that particular decision, was what kind of opened up there, the way they looked at the world. And then I had to tell that story to software engineers, or whoever else to turn it into code. So. So anyway, that those have been some of the terrains I've been in. But I look at my, and now of course, end of life work and loss and grief work. I look at what I do as moving across the terrain. And as I'm, it's not like I've got a particular goal that I'm trying to hit. Boy, by the time I hit this, I'll be done. Right. You know, I'm, I'm in the best sense of the word and explore and picking up skills and interests along the way. And say, oh, boy, I didn't even know there was that over there. Let's go find that out.

Nicoa Coach: 6:36

But the thread of storytelling runs is what keeps it all connected. Yeah, I think that's beautiful. Because really designing a life is writing your own story. Yeah. And I think to your point, when people don't know, I mean, that's really why this is so powerful, because you're helping people ask themselves, how do I know? What do I know? And why is that important to me? Now, that's beautiful. Is there some? Do you remember an early story, that as you begin to navigate the terrain of your life, is there a story that was pivotal for you, or?

JIM BRULÉ: 7:14

Yeah, so when I was a young boy, so you know, 1012, something like that. You know, we were raised on the explorers. And that's why I have a really mixed relationship to the word explorer. The colonials came over, and, but explored the world for a 10 year old boy, back then, that was about the most exciting thing you could think of. And I loved reading all the stories, especially the story about Magellan, who almost made it all the way around the world. His crew did, but he was killed in the Philippines. And I thought what a tragedy that was, he was great, man. And, you know. And then when I was 13, we moved to the Philippines. Oh, wow. And we moved to the next island over from where Magellan was killed. And in fact, the guy who killed him, his name is lapu. lapu is a national hero. He's the guy that beat back the foreign invaders. And there's, there's 100 stories about lapu love was amazing, amazing character. But here I was 1314 years old. And my hero was the villain. Right, you know. And the villain was the hero. And I, I'm so fortunate, because I could have just said at that point, oh, what I thought was wrong. This is right. Instead, I was able, thankfully, to say they're both right. Right. You know, both stories are true. Both stories carry a weight with them. Sure. You know, they're not without consequence. But there's more than one way to look at the world and and have it be absolutely true. Not that one is better than the other. Right. You know, and, and so that's kind of that's, that's easy for me to go back to because that was the moment when when it wasn't just that one story but that visit to the Philippines where everything that stood on its head for me. Well, that's

Nicoa Coach: 9:47

a unique life experience for anyone to especially you, you you were in the US and then moved to the Philippines. Is that right?

JIM BRULÉ: 9:55

Yeah. For yeah for almost two years. So

Nicoa Coach: 9:57

that's a the ability to even Do that is going to give your your mind kind of more of a worldly perspective. Anyway. So there's beauty in that experience for sure. And it's, I would like to take that ability to see both sides. And have you share your experience when you brought together around the time that I think we were working together, you know, the Palestinians and Israelis, some a variety of people tell us how that evolved in and you became a part of that. That was like an opportunity to create world peace right there. I mean, I love that. Yeah.

JIM BRULÉ: 10:36

There, there really was. So, I live in the Syracuse area. And I've lived a lot of places by that's where I come, come and go from. And there's a group here that's been around, I think it's close to 50 years. And and it's called the Syracuse area, Middle East dialogue, not not the catchy names. But what they did was they put together a group of 21 people, seven Jews, seven Palestinians, and seven others, and just said, you know, we're just sitting here in circles, but maybe there's something we can do, you know, just if we just talk to each other, and hear each other's stories, maybe some good will come. And they were so successful at what they did that for the Camp David Accords. The secret negotiations that happened for those happened in search, wow. The team went to the White House for the signing of the same of the of the the court, wow. And that group, continues to this day, I was president for all of it for a while. And it still has, you know, the problem hasn't changed. It's gotten, it's gotten more and more problematic. But it has, at its heart, the notion that we can tell each other our stories, they can be painful, they can be contradictory. But as long as we're still telling each other stories, there's hope in a

Nicoa Coach: 12:30

beautiful, because we're willing to listen, are willing to create a space for that. Yeah. And say they

JIM BRULÉ: 12:38

don't have to convince you to believe what I believe. Right. But But I do depend on you seeing the world, at least for a moment, as I see it.

Nicoa Coach: 12:49

And that is a real skill. Because I think the challenge for many is that when I am if I don't feel seen, then I tend to project and impose and insist, and I can't hear you, I can't see you if I don't feel seen. What was your role in that group? How did you participate? Well,

JIM BRULÉ: 13:11

I started off just as one of the seven Jewish members. And I, I have this genetic thing that I tend to become leader.

Nicoa Coach: 13:22

I can relate to that.

JIM BRULÉ: 13:26

So after a while, I joined the Executive Committee, and then I was the leader, you know, but but leadership in that group was really more of an external function. within the group, everybody was equal. It was more a matter of, you know, if the press needed somebody to talk to somebody had to have the time. So it was more than that sort of a thing. But

Nicoa Coach: 14:59

what did you learn about yourself in that experience? I mean, that's a pretty profound dynamic to then be tapped into by the government in order to get opinion and

JIM BRULÉ: 15:10

well, and I was not there for the Camp David. So that that history proceeded. Right, right. But I think for myself, I learned well, I really learned some of the things I learned the Philippines. One of the things I learned there, I mean, I encountered really abject poverty there. And that was, again is extremely disturbing for a 13 year old boy who grew up in, you know, white middle class America. So I really encountered that by understanding the real depth of misery that the Palestinians are going through and how they became necessary for me to be able to say, I can be Jewish and not support this government, you know, and that's a hard thing in the Jewish world. But Sure. So, but that was one of the big lessons was to say, I can absolutely empathize with somebody in their situation. And even though I'm associated with the source of that pain, I can distinguish myself from it, and help them distinguish me from it as well. So I think we both got both sides got a lot out of that. Because he sighed could say, oh, you're not terrible. Oh, maybe everybody, like you isn't terrible, you know. And that's, that's, there's no way to teach that you have to live it.

Nicoa Coach: 16:53

You really do have to live it. And I don't think people will spend enough time trying to understand what it's like to be the other person. What would you share about being raised as a Jewish person of faith in white, Anglo Saxon, American Protestant environments? People don't know what's it like to be you, Jim?

JIM BRULÉ: 17:18

That's, unfortunately, that's that's the wrong question.

Nicoa Coach: 17:22

What's the question?

JIM BRULÉ: 17:24

The question, actually, one of the other things that changed in the Philippines, and this won't all be is that before we went to the Philippines, we were devout Catholics. Oh,

Nicoa Coach: 17:37

wow.

JIM BRULÉ: 17:41

And when we so as being part of being a really devout Catholic, part of the world video I have then was, well, there's two paths, you're Catholic, or you're going to hell, it's very painful. And we got to the Philippines, and it's a Catholic country. But it's not any Catholic I've ever seen. It's a very, there's a lot of indigenous magic that's been incorporated into the practice there. And so as an example, there would be before every mass, there'd be these old women dancing around outside the church, with candles, and the priests would come in and bless them. And they'd make a procession up to the altar, and he bless them again. And then if you were a young woman who wanted to have a baby, you would go get one of the magic candles because they would be able to get pregnant. Ah, you know? Well, that's not

Nicoa Coach: 18:42

that's no Catholic in the US.

JIM BRULÉ: 18:45

And so that there was another case of that example of, well, there's two truths here. And if there's two truths, well, there's three and four, and five, you know, and, and so, it was at that age that the whole family left Catholicism ah, and I didn't become Jewish for Oh, another 20 years after that. So it was, I didn't, I can't tell you what it's like.

Nicoa Coach: 19:17

Was there a pivotal moment when you made that choice? Was there an AHA story that said, you know, this is the path that resonates most with me?

JIM BRULÉ: 19:26

Yeah. So from that moment, through the end of college, I was looking for something because I loved that kind of community and practice and all. I couldn't find a thing. I just and you name it. I tried it in Buddhism and every Christian version I could find and a bunch of other stuff. I never tried Judaism. I don't know why. But it just, I had lots of Jewish friends. But yeah. Well, so I got married. We had our first kid. And the we went to the Lamaze class. And the woman there was another couple in LeMans class we became very good friends with and the wife was a cantered a temple. And I said to my wife, Joe said, Emily is going to have a most beautiful singing voice. We just sitting in the room with her. We know this. Let's go here sing. Yeah, I wasn't going to go to a junior Seamus, I was going to hear Emily sing. So we go and she said she was she was born Jewish, but she was as Jewish as Christmas trees. I mean, that that wasn't there at all right? And so we walked into the service. And there's a prayer early on in the service. That's kind of the statement of faith, the credo it's called the Shema. And it's sung. It's a very simple thing. It's sung out everybody sings it, everybody knows it. So the smile comes and it Just I said, I'm home. I have no idea what this religion is. I don't know anything about it. But I'm home. And so I gotta figure this out beautiful. So yeah, so there was

Nicoa Coach: 21:21

a profound one. And you've must have felt it throughout your body that this term now, I love that. And I love when you referenced, you know, if there's two truths, there's three, there's four, there's five truths. And the more we can take the blinders off. And actually, look, I did some research around the Baha'i Faith at one point and, and I love looking at, like, for example, do unto others, and how that showed up in all of the religious texts, right, it's a consistent theme of values and standards of living and, and I think it's quite beautiful. And whatever is your truth is yours, you can't get this thing called life wrong. And I think people put a standard up, they think, if I don't live to this standard that I fail, you know, I think back to is to, you know, your own career path. You went down the traditional, you know, you got the education, and then all of a sudden, you're working in the big corporate world. Tell us a little bit about that journey. That American, the American dream journey, right?

JIM BRULÉ: 22:22

Oh, my goodness. Well, and for just a tiny bit of context there. My dad was a university professor. And he had basically two jobs in his life, one of which lasted for two years, you know, so he was at this at this institution. So anytime I thought about another job is well, why are you right, you know, what do you do? Anyway, so that was, that was a little background. Context. Yeah. But I had, I had been in the, in the family therapy field for about a decade. And I'd had a few jobs. I had also had a small private practice. And we had just had our second child. And we were making enough money. My wife was a stay at home mom, which is what we need. She was happy with that. And even so, with my full time employment and my private practice, we weren't cutting it. So I said, Well, I grew up my dad was a computer scientist. I grew up in this world, I could go back to school and and pick up that career because a lot of money in that. And so in a crazy way, I went back to school for my second master's. I was, so we I was working full time. I had I was taken a masters that would get me through in two years instead of and at the same time, and we're raising two kids. And oh, by the way, somebody approached me in the first year, I was my masters and said, Would you write a book on artificial intelligence?

Nicoa Coach: 24:10

Oh, wow.

JIM BRULÉ: 24:12

So I said, Okay,

Nicoa Coach: 24:14

you're so cool.

JIM BRULÉ: 24:16

I'm gonna go. And, and so that was the last two years of my family therapy career. And then I just jumped head on into the AI really was the place I went. And in a absolutely bizarre set of circumstances, you know, I would never have done this. Years later, I got a an interview with a British company, big British consultancy that was going to open up their US operations. And they were and it was an AI. And they were looking for American employees to launch their American division. And I saw I applied and they said, Yeah, here's the interview, come up to our hotel room. And it was not a suite. It was a hotel.

Nicoa Coach: 25:16

We said sitting on a bed having

JIM BRULÉ: 25:20

sitting on the bed for the interview. And I'm thinking well is this corporate America? This is no I heard. But I got the job and became their director of AI technology. On the basis of the fact that I had written a book.

Nicoa Coach: 25:40

Oh my gosh, God, we can probably have an entire conversation about where you think ai ai was and where it is now. Oh,

JIM BRULÉ: 25:49

that would be but anyway, so I just jumped in with both. And and I was I was swimming in the de shore. Because I was I hadn't Ever it was a big company and I'm big, but it was 7000 people. I had been working for three person clinic. That was, that was a huge

Nicoa Coach: 26:12

Well, was it? You were scared a little bit? I bet you're nervous. All right,

JIM BRULÉ: 26:16

yeah. What do I do now? And who are these crazy people? Why did oh, I had to go to England to get trained. And it was just, it was, it was a great experience, but it was full of Sure.

Nicoa Coach: 26:32

And you driven by the need to provide for your family at a different level. And I mean, this is a pretty typical story where people put hopefully, people are putting themselves in situations to expand in order to meet their needs. But at what point, were you not having fun? Or did you start having fun?

JIM BRULÉ: 26:51

I, you know, I think there's two answers to that. And one is, I was always having fun. And the other is there are lots of miserable sore. So I don't think what, I'm going to jump to the end of the day, or the I retired now, five years ago, I guess, four years ago. And that was the first time that I said, I'm not having fun at this, ah, you know, everything else. There were hard times that were miserable times, there were times that I was unemployed. You know, and, but it was the first time that I said, you know, this is just this work is just sold that now. And it's time for me to leave. And thankfully, they made they did not know how to do early retirement, and they they the mistakes they made were? Well, I was happy for

Nicoa Coach: 28:03

what it was that caused you to reach out to me. Do you remember when we started our coaching work together? Did someone recommend me? Or do you remember?

JIM BRULÉ: 28:11

No, I remember, I remembered, I think it was a combination of remembering you and having worked with you. And KJ Jones was a dear friend. And so I think it was a combination.

Nicoa Coach: 28:27

I follow her on social media. She's he's lovely. Yeah.

JIM BRULÉ: 28:32

And that was about that was probably a year or two before. That's right. And so I could, I could see that. I didn't think I was thinking retirement at that point. I was thinking of the next job, whatever. That was my next job. My next mission,

Nicoa Coach: 28:50

right? You were really starting to talk about the storytelling work and setting that business up. So had you so you, at what point did you get get engaged to where so a lot of people listening are trying to figure out how do they actually create their life by design that they don't need that vacation from that they don't dread every morning. And so, you know, unlike me, who quit with no plan. I loved how you were actually starting to get out ahead of it. And you were intentionally designing it while still maintaining that role. And what worked, remind me how that work with me helped you like was there an insight?

JIM BRULÉ: 29:32

Well, so for your listeners a little bit. So I was working for this company, all scripts, and I was a regulatory expert. And what I was doing was helping people understand the the regulations around healthcare reform. And again, just as a little reference point, when I joined all scripts, they would publish about 1000 pages a year of regulations. When I left, which was nine years later, it was 1000 pages laugh and, and that's what was dead. So So I was, I could see that ramping up. I was, you know, okay, I don't this is no longer feeding my soul. I had been doing storytelling throughout the whole period, because I had been ordained I had a school. This is all on the side anyway. And I thought I there's a chance for me to really make this my primary focus, not my, my opportunity, the second option. So that's what I wanted to do was to say, what, what is it going to take for me to transition out of this corporate job without without losing the corporate connections because I had a tremendous amount of corporate connections and retool myself in their eyes. As a as a corporate storyteller, somebody who can can make that work on a See, that's not what happened. I got into storytelling. But I realized I was really done with corporate. And the other thing that was going on then was my dad was dying. And so I, I wasn't about to launch a corporate career in the middle of that. So it was it was, it was all very good time.

Nicoa Coach: 31:26

Yeah. And I enjoyed our time together. That was, it was insightful to me to see the way your mind works. And I do, I think the work that you've done, would you explain? So let me tell you, what I saw was what actually what I saw was someone very passionate and purpose driven, and dedicated and committed to the organization that you had an agreement with, there was no second guessing of your commitment there at all. And you were delivering, you know, good work, they certainly didn't want to see you go, that's for sure. But at the end of the day, you knew what was fueling your soul? And so maybe share a little bit about that business model and what you learned about yourself and the people you are training as storytellers, how could that that those stories shared with this population help them do something? Sure.

JIM BRULÉ: 32:27

Oh, boy, um, so the training that I've been doing now, I just finished my seventh year. Boy, it's such a leap. So I Yeah, you tell me, I'll figure I'll figure it out. I'll figure out the bridge. After I've told you

Nicoa Coach: 32:46

no worries.

JIM BRULÉ: 32:50

I work with students, I now have faculty as well, from around the world from different cultures. So in my school, as an example, I have an indigenous Narragansett storyteller, an indigenous Mexican storyteller, someone who tells Indigenous stories from Hungary, I mean, you know, really digging into the old stuff. The students I have are also from around the world and as many different traditions what I'm trying to bring to people in this training, because all of these people are storytellers, in one sense or another. Some of them are not full time, storytellers. They use it in their career, like I was doing it all scripts. But um, when you look at a story carefully, and with an open heart, one of the things that happens is you discover new things about yourself and about the people you're working with. When you tell, especially when you tell a story, and I so I focus on oral storytelling, rather than written, written storytelling, of course, we're going to use written storytelling, but that the skills being taught or oral storytelling. When you do that, you form a bond with your audience, even if it's just one other person. And you each start learning things about each other, that you never expected. And your your life grows richer. I'm, I'm of the firm belief that first of all, we can't communicate without telling stories. Literally can't. And that, if we open ourselves up to what lies deeper inside a story, we learned a lot. And we also form better connections. And that that happens no matter what path you're on. I mean, some of the folks that had been my students, I've had trial lawyers, I've had physicians, you know, these are not people are going off to be on the stage Jonesborough stories. These are people who have to work with other people in a variety of different ways. And in order to get their best results, they have to be in true communication, people. And, and the only way to do that is to be able to engage in this storytelling medium. And the great part about it is well everybody loves to tell stories. They may not feel as comfortable as they like to be, but it's our natural state of communication. So when you can encourage someone to tell you their story. especially when you learn how to keep them on track, then they're just great, great work happens and new opportunities come, I can't tell you the number of things that have come to me, because I had the chance to sit and tell stories with somebody. And we both thought of, Oh, my God, we Oh, wow. Yeah. You know, it just

Nicoa Coach: 36:25

co creation, that collaboration comes up naturally.

JIM BRULÉ: 36:30

Yeah, and I guess that's the other big piece of it. For me, I do a lot of teaching. Now, I do a lot of workshops. And I would much rather have a partner in, in all of those things. And it's not always the same partner by any means. But co teaching coat doing workshops together, is just, it's great. It's, it's the where, where the good, that's

Nicoa Coach: 36:57

that level six, energy and energy leadership that we've talked about, right, that connection, that synergy. Everything is possible. I am you and you are me. You know, I, I'm thinking about the training of these individuals, these people that are in their world, in their unique worlds. I had a client, MBA student at NC State, who happened to also be a mayor of a very small town. And I'm wondering, I was gonna get your opinion on this. When we I coached with her for a while. And she said, I really want to foster more effective communication, when I'm being interviewed. And she gave an example. She said they they asked me some questions on a panel the other day about the park system, in the little city, that very small town that she's the mayor of and she said, I started listing the parks, well, we have this park in that park, and we have these parks and and then you know, and this is the budget and blah, blah, blah. And that was the end of the answer. And, and she was like, it was it kind of landed kind of boring. And then the people next to me, they asked him a question. And they started telling stories. And I said, What do you think the block is between you answering it in that way, and answering it very factually. And she said, I think I'm afraid I'm gonna get it wrong. I'm embarrassed. And I'm wondering, is it a vulnerability that people need to step into maybe to tell the story in a relaxed state? What do you think?

JIM BRULÉ: 38:28

I think there's a couple of things there. One is if you're reciting facts, you can get them wrong. True. If you're if you're telling a story, there's more than one way to tell the story in a true way. And so one way of letting go of that fear is to say, well, I don't I don't have to be accurate. I have to tell the truth. But I don't have to be accurate than that takes some and in the storytelling training that I do. I don't let people read stories. I don't let you know out loud. I don't let them memorize them. They've got to speak them extemporaneously. So that's, that's one big part of it. The other part, if I were in the room with her, I might suggest why don't you ask them something? A story about one of the parks? That's yeah, yeah. You know, and just get that dialogue going. And then, you know, you could you know, call it could have submitted a list of questions for me, I could arrange my answers.

Nicoa Coach: 39:37

Right. Exactly. And I think you're right, one of the ways that she and I ultimately came up with an example would was when she, she said, I said, What if you just started answering that question by saying the other day, I was walking down the sidewalk next to such and such park. And I noticed a mother and her children playing on the swings. And it just gave me a sense of community and I felt so happy that they felt safe in that park. And with the new, the new trees, we just planted, blah, blah, blah. She's just told you a whole bunch of things. She's walking in her community, she sees a family who feels safe and they invested in trees. So

JIM BRULÉ: 40:19

I'll get I'll tie this back to a question. We'll talk about another time. There's a great man, his name was Gregory. And he was an evolutionary biologist. He was a computer scientist. He was a mathematician. He was a spiritualist. He was married to Margaret Mead. I mean, he was just an amazing guy. And he was in on the early days of artificial intelligence. Okay. And he was interviewed and asked the question, How would you know if a computer's got AI? And he says, very simple. You would ask the computer a question, and the computer would respond. That reminds me of

Nicoa Coach: 41:06

interesting.

JIM BRULÉ: 41:08

And that's that's how you know you've got two people talking to each other.

Nicoa Coach: 41:12

They're telling stories. Well, this is a good point to take a quick break, little coffee break. And then when we come back, I want to dig a little bit deeper into your, your decision to become a death doula, just as a personal intrigue there and my own family experience as well as what you're working on now. So we will be right back.

Unknown: 41:36

We hope you're enjoying listening to this episode of Coffee with Nicoa. Make sure to subscribe so that you never miss an episode and follow Coffee with Nicoa on Instagram to find inspiring content that will help you begin creating your life by design.

Nicoa Coach: 41:51

And we're back. This has been so lovely. A year ago, that reminds me of a story. A year ago, my father passed away. And I was fortunate enough to be at his bedside when he passed. And so was my mother. And as I mentioned, my mother was trained and certified as a death doula and worked with what was called the 11th hour program at the hospice organization in the western part of North Carolina. And it was funny as not funny, but it was intense as we sat on either side of my father as he, as he began to be consumed from the pneumonia that he had had taken on during his final hours. And I watched my mother transition from being his wife to being his death doula, and his partner in the end, and it was phenomenal. We move from fear, anxiety, grief, to care, and permission giving kindness, gentleness, her voice shifted, he was trying to speak and we couldn't understand him in the language he used was, oh, Paul, that must be so difficult for you to not be able to communicate with us right now. And then just guiding him into a space of relaxation. And not only helping him but just her presence with my father helped me get into a space of calm acceptance. And I could just be in a state of love for him and appreciation and gratitude as as I watched her let go so that he could let go. And it was beautiful. And I thought oh my gosh, you know, maybe I should be a death doula one day. So how am I friend? Did you find this beautiful skill and opportunity for you?

JIM BRULÉ: 43:57

Well, it certainly had its roots in my family therapy career. So you know, there's a lot of the compassionate listening and all that, that that are just good skills to have. I had my mother had died many years ago. And that was so that kind of launched me in that direction. I was I was like 42 at the time. So it was not terribly young, but young, younger than expected to have a parent died. But I also in the the careers that I was having the healthcare IT I spent a lot of time in hospitals. And I was just drawn to those circumstances where people were really working with people at the end of life for people in traumatic situations. And the storytelling also was I was and am invested in deep spiritual work. And that's kind of one of the big time sure spiritual work so so there was a natural just and i i Everything goes back to the Philippines. I when I was in the Philippines, I had a good friend die when I was 13. You know, so death is kind of been around for a while. Yeah, for in my life. My life. Part of my answer comes from your story, which is there's a real fear in our culture about death. And I it's almost it's worse than fear. It's just complete denial. We're so frightened by it. Don't even want to think about it. And you know, my my daughter is a postpartum so we like to say we got him on both sides. But the process of labor and delivery is one, where one of the best things you can give a couple, but the mother in particular is knowledge, you know, so that they can let go of the fear. Because there's so much fear, the pain is intense. And if you layer fear on top of that is just unmanageable. Same thing is true of end of life. There can be pain, although there isn't usually as much, but there's an awful lot of fear. And there's fear in the people around them, even if that particular person is not feeling frightened in that moment, they have been up until then their family has been. So a lot of what I see myself doing is helping reducing that fear. And it's through education in some part, but it's also by active modeling. You know, here's, here's how you talk to somebody, they're still listening, even though they don't seem to be responsive, we still talk to them, they're in the room with us, blah, blah, blah. So I think, I think that's, that's in part, what, what really drew me to working with the dying. But then my father's death was a really, it was a long affair was not terrible. He was on dialysis for five years. And his, at the end of his life, he chose to stop dialysis, you know, the quality of life just wasn't there. And he made the conscious decision to say this is enough. And so it was he and my stepmother, his second wife, the three of us have been very close. And so the three of us were there together as he died. And that that kind of propelled me in saying, Okay, I've got some skills here. Let me look into this. So what did I do, I went off and got more training. I did a year of Clinical Pastoral Education at a local hospital. And this particular hospital is its Upstate Medical Center. It's a big teaching hospital. It's really very prestigious. It's where the clinical, the leader of the clinical trials for the Pfizer lives. I mean, where are you? You know, it's it's a level one trauma center for adults and children and burning it. I mean, it's so there's lots going on. And I was able to spend a year on the oncology and working with people all the time. And so I really got some good chops there doing that. And I'm, I'm taking this further as a cast but where it's where it's led me you know, we have we have a cute saying, if you want to be if you want to make a million dollars as a death, doula start with a building. It's not a finance, I

Nicoa Coach: 49:17

don't even think my mother ever got paid.

JIM BRULÉ: 49:21

No, no, it's no, there are medical, our healthcare system does not support that notion. So what can I do in how can I sustain myself? When but I can't go. The people who can afford me are few. Well, there's a whole body of people out there who are still frightened by death. They're the caregivers in the nursing homes. They're the family members. They're the physical therapists, there's the nurses. And so I work with, we have a thing called an Omega home, and now that's a national movement of places that provide a home for somebody who Oh, wow. Yeah. It's more than hospice. Hospice is kind of the management of it. And omega home is your home. And you can go there and you take your pictures and if you've got a pet, okay, it's your home. It's your lifestyle. And so I'm, we have a large one here in Syracuse, it's got 16 residents, which is pretty unusual. 300 volunteers that make this thing work. And I'm no storyteller. So I come in and I either tell or listen to stories with the residents and their families. Well, the director of that and I are launching training programs for these second order, people who will never become death, doulas, but people who are doing feeling all the time all the time, and letting them develop a fluency in just being around people who are dying and seeing it as something that isn't a terrifying and

Nicoa Coach: 51:16

beautiful, it makes me emotional thinking about that scene of you. Not only sharing story, but listening to stories. I mean, you know, my, my favorite memories are of the coffee with my dad. Right. So coffee with Nikola, you know, sitting in front of the fire with my mom, my father would heat up the cups in the microwave before we got up so they'd be warm so that we could put our coffee in a warm mug, and he would have stoked the fire. And he'd be in his big robe with his feet up. And then I would sit, and my mom would sit and then my dad would tell stories. Now, we might have heard these stories a million times, but I, I can, I can imagine. And maybe just maybe just earlier, the gift you giving to these individuals is profound. Talk a little bit more about what you're doing around grief and loss. Is there some more programs that you're doing right now that you'd like to share?

JIM BRULÉ: 52:14

Yeah, yeah. Yes, thank you. I've one of the, you know, the pandemic created. Beyond the real pain and, and challenges it created, it also created a lot of opportunities. And for me, it opened up the opportunity to work with people around the world. And so I've been running a series now with a wonderful colleague who lives in Spain,

Nicoa Coach: 52:44

not the Philippines.

JIM BRULÉ: 52:47

Not the Philippines, though. And you know, true to my form. She's a Belgian British storyteller who lived in India most of her life. And now,

Nicoa Coach: 52:59

I love her already.

JIM BRULÉ: 53:02

Yeah, we have a series of four workshops. Each one is six weeks long, called a journey through dying and living. And we look at old stories. And for six weeks each time, and people explore different aspects of dying, and living. So we look at facing our own death, recent grief, older ancestral grief, and that which does not die. And we run those around year round. So every quarter, we run another six weeks on six weeks off. So that's one thing I'm doing. Another is I now have the opportunity to work in person with people. And so I have a series of residential workshops, and that these are not just these are retreats not just an evening or a class, where we go away for three or four days, and use storytelling and this other kind of deep work, to look at our own mortality and to look at not just mortality, but loss, you know, because loss and grief are there, whether we're talking about somebody who's dying, or a divorce or whatever, the the issues are there. So we were we're doing that we're doing the next one is in July. I'm also doing one as a program on storytelling as a spiritual practice. So how do we, how do we step into storytelling, not just as a way of communicating, but about developing our own spiritual strength?

Nicoa Coach: 54:59

You know, you said, you reference the deep spiritual work. And I wonder if you could expand on that a little bit. And by the way, we will make sure and put all of these activities in the show notes because I want people to reach out to you and I was sitting here thinking to myself, God, I just wish I was already retired. So I could spend all my time doing those things. I just want to sign up for everything. But you talk about this deep spiritual work, and I'm watching a population this Gen Z population kind of step back in many ways, from spirituality as a construct of religion, there, many of them are quite resistant, some are very anti anything. And that's okay. And I have a small window. I don't I don't see everybody around the world and their perspectives. But I would, I would love to invite people to embrace that concept of deep spiritual work. How would you define that for someone?

JIM BRULÉ: 56:02

Yeah, Well, first of all, it's really important to make the distinction between being religious and being spiritual. And I know you're interested in neuroscience, there's some great work been done specifically with that, to say there is a difference and people who are spiritual, have a better physiological and psychological residual resilience than people who are either religious, or nothing. That doesn't surprise me. You know? No. So so first of all, there's a brain test you can take to say, if you're so cool, that's the deep spiritual work for me, is when you do two things. One is you open yourself up to looking at the world as being truly connected. And and, you know, I'm not saying that you have to believe in a higher power or anything like that. But that there is a connection of life that flows through us all. And I know, and again, some of this neuroscience, prove it, that if you're looking for it, you can find it. Now, some people will say, Oh, yeah, but that's just, you know, observer bias. Okay? Right, that's fine. Because it takes you to a good place. So so I'm sorry, I'm happy with that. So one of the things to do is, you know, open your heart and encounter this, this deep connectedness. And the challenge there is that when you do that, you encounter pain. And you can't do one without the other. And so the deep spiritual work is taking those two things, the joy and the pain and saying, they're both true. They're both real. And I have to wrestle with both of them. And I have to allow one to feed the other. And, and that's, that, for me is an open heart and holding on to

Nicoa Coach: 58:29

pain, I think that's beautiful. Allowing yourself to sit with all of the emotions, of this existence of life, is really the first step to being open hearted, because in until you're comfortable with their own emotional state, that tends to be the block between you being able to connect with another. So yeah, I think it's really important. And I, I do think the root of all of our issues is separation, separation and not acknowledging

JIM BRULÉ: 59:02

well, but but, but we also have to keep in their distinctiveness. And, you know, I've learned so much from indigenous cultures. And I don't want to say that I'm representing him. But every indigenous culture that I've encountered, has, amongst its truths, the notion that while we're all connected, we all have a different role to play. And, and that, that, that's what makes things work. If we were all we're gonna be carpenters in trouble, you know, we need to, there's a reason is this difference. The Muslims say, if a law had wanted everybody to be the same religion could have done it, there's no, there's no impediment there. So there must be a reason for us having differences, and we should we should embrace them. What's the reason? And the reason is, so that we get to know each other?

Nicoa Coach: 1:00:12

Yes. And we would be we'd be very bored. And I think the polarity and the uniqueness serves those who find that whatever is there for you to find, and appreciating that your truth is okay, and I can have my truth as well. And that whatever is serving us, but we're all in it together that. Yeah. You know, so much that I picked up on in the last part of these conversations. One of the things I really wanted to take away too is your dialogue around grief and loss and the spirituality of that even. Hey, it's death by design. It's really, you know, did they have these death cafes that I heard about that you can go and sit and talk about death

JIM BRULÉ: 1:01:03

So I run some deaf cafes, I'll tell you a funny thing. My friend in Spain, she runs them there too. She said, but it's a problem. Because you know, there is a organization, a Deaf Cafe organization who is very, you know, holds tightly on to the word and, okay, what you have to do. She said, if you call it a death cafe in Spain, it means the place where the coffin. And if you call it that in French, it means the shop, you go to die.

Nicoa Coach: 1:01:39

It doesn't translate.

JIM BRULÉ: 1:01:41

Doesn't work. doesn't translate. But anyways, yes. And those are wonderful things because people, that's

Nicoa Coach: 1:01:48

right, they can, and people should be talking about it. And I think that we should get out ahead of it. That's why life by design has been such a, you know, a powerful mantra for me, your life, I design, I love mine, my little six word story, I want to get out ahead of how I want to die. And my mother talks about it all the time. She's like, When I die, this is what I want to experience for me. And then she goes, and I'm not going to manage from the grave. She's like, you guys, do whatever you want after I'm gone. But you know, there's, we are not talking about it enough. And I'm really pleased that you are and that you're helping people help themselves and their loved ones. Do that in a more connected way, I would say a more connected way. Well, Jim, you and I could talk all day forever, would you be willing, and I'm going to put you to the test here to share with us in story. How your life by design serves you

JIM BRULÉ: 1:02:56

I will tell you a short story. And this is I'll just say it's a short story. Most of the stories that I tell come from a traditional source. So but I have a few of my own and this is one of my own. And it's it's a new one and maybe I'll tell you about how I came to it afterwards. Um There was a great forest. And in this forest, there were many, many different kinds of trees. There were many, many different beings. There were the four legs. There were the swimmers that were the flyers. There were the grandparents, the stones, and they all supported each other. But in this forest, there was one tree that it wasn't the oldest tree. It wasn't the youngest tree. But it also was very ill is very ill. It was a bark was thick and crusty. The branches were withered in you hardly ever see a leaf on it. And if you did, it was brown. And it was said that it used to bear fruit but it didn't. And it was so unpleasant to look at that animals would stay away from it. Even the trees nearby wouldn't let their bows brush against it. Well, one morning a woodpecker came. Now if you know woodpeckers, they like to drill into trees and get bugs. And no woodpecker had come to this tree because it was very clear it was so sick that it didn't even have any bugs but this woodpecker came and it drilled into the tree and with each strike the tree recoiled and shivered. And it was almost as if you could hear its pain that the woodpecker woodpecker kept drilling in a drilled in a drill until finally it gave up, just couldn't find anything. But as it kind of pulled back and stood by the side there, up flew a hummingbird and hummingbird stuck its nose in and stuck its tongue out and it found the tiniest bit of sap. It tasted it and it was Sweet is nectar. And so it tasted again. And this there was just a little more scent this time. It was as if every time she tasted the SAP, a little bit more of it float. But she pulled out and the woodpecker resumed his attack and he started making another hole and she went up. And sure enough, there was SAP there again, and it was a little bit more of this time. And this went on and on over time, until finally, the first leaf appeared on the tree. And after that, the first bite of her fruit. And when it finally had fully buttered in the fruit fell, it was a fruit that nobody had ever tasted before. And it was all because the woodpecker would come and do this very painful thing. Drilling into this tree and this, the hummingbird would come and sit the SAP and get the sap to flow. And that's kind of my story.

Nicoa Coach: 1:07:21

And you tell this beautiful story with the image of a tree fully, you know, green leaves and beauty behind you. And I see you as that beautiful tree. And I see how you shared the elements of pain and joy. And if we can look through the wounds we can pull that beautiful essence out of every being and

JIM BRULÉ: 1:07:49

and but we need to open them up to sometimes you know, like Leonard Cohen says it's the crack. Exactly like combs.

Nicoa Coach: 1:07:58

Well, that's a beautiful way for us to wrap our time. I love you. I think you're a phenomenal human being I feel honored to have been on this very short journey with you but a long one for us. And I hope it will continue. Thank you for what you do, Jim. And my husband told me not to do it. But how many times do people call you cram brew lay.

JIM BRULÉ: 1:08:27

Well, often enough, often enough.

Nicoa Coach: 1:08:31

jibber lay do people call you crimp relay all the time?

JIM BRULÉ: 1:08:36

Yeah, because I'm crusty on the outside but sweeter che

Nicoa Coach: 1:08:40

i love it. I thank you, dear. I will talk to you again in the future. Okay. Very good.

Unknown: 1:08:50

Thanks for joining us for a caffeinated conversation. Subscribe to Coffee with Nicola for more stories from people living a life by design. You can also find inspiration on Instagram. Just follow coffee with Nicola and check out our website Coffee with nicoa.com and that's Nicoa N IC O A. We look forward to talking with you soon. And enjoy your coffee between now and then.