S1 Ep 7: Ben Fanning

Grab your coffee y'all, you're gonna wanna here this one...Nicoa talks with a friend and fellow coach and podcaster Ben Fanning about a handful of his personal and professional "aha moments" related to side hustles and corporate life and how he finally created his ideal Life by Design! Oh, and they also talk about self leadership, burnout and  when  your therapist fires  YOU!

Ben Fanning hosts the popular Lead the Team podcast and has a best-selling book The QUIT Alternative: The Blueprint for Creating the Job You Love Without Quitting. Learn more about Ben on his website. 

Buy your copy of YOUR LIFE BY DESIGN: A Coffee With Nicoa Self-Care Coaching Journal
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Transcript

Nicoa Coach: 0:01

Grab your coffee and join me Nicoa For a caffeinated conversation about life. I'll be talking to people who have chosen to walk their own paths and just like me, are creating a life by design. I hope it will give you the inspiration you need to do exactly the same. Hello, everybody, this is Nicoa coming to you through our coffee with Nicoa Podcast. Today, I have the most wonderful privilege and pleasure to be with a good old friend of mine from 10 plus years ago who I met through the Newfield network, Ben Fanning. Ben is not only a peer of mine in the coaching world, but he and I have been friends over the years, we exchange holiday cards and I love watching his beautiful life by design. Ben is now a host of lead the team podcast and He's ranked in the top 2% globally. For his success with that podcast. He actually interviews world class executives about their everyday success strategies that can be applied to businesses of one to 100,000 bins, also a professional speaker. He's got the wonderful book called the burnout specialist or the Quit alternative, I guess he's the burnout specialist. And he is also a corporate trainer. He helps organizations with their leadership training, he also helps companies do podcasts. And I love that because he produced his podcast, which makes it a little bit nerve wracking for me, since he's one of my early interviews. But if anybody can share with us about a life by design that they've created from, from a more traditional start to something that he designed on his own terms is going to be Ben. So you're going to enjoy this conversation. I can't wait to share it with you guys. Let me know what you think. Hey, Ben Fanning.

Ben Fanning: 2:00

Hey, Nicoa.

Nicoa Coach: 2:02

How are you? Doing well

Ben Fanning: 2:04

today, glad to be here with you.

Nicoa Coach: 2:06

Well, I'm glad that you're here. I was chuckling with you right before we push record, about our history together. We've known each other now what 10 plus years?

Ben Fanning: 2:16

I think it was 10 years over a decade of awesomeness.

Nicoa Coach: 2:20

We are definitely both very awesome. So I would not have you on this podcast if you weren't awesome. So Ben, I want to talk today about that path that you've taken really in the last decade because and if not before, because I'm really super curious about your life by design. And you've done something similar to me. But before I even go there, I want to say you have been a role model for me, you you have already been producing a podcast, you produce other people's podcasts, you have your own podcast lead the team and the top 2%. I swear you are knocking it out of the park. And you got here though, through a very unique path. And I want to just go back and maybe you could tell us a little bit about where you started, how you started in the corporate world and then found yourself here out of the corporate world, living your own life doing your own thing. Where should we start?

Ben Fanning: 3:24

Well, it's a good question. Well, we can we can talk about, I guess a lot of points. I think one of the things that I think about a lot is growing up I had big dreams are the corner office. And I grew up in a little town Alabama called Alexander city 16,000 people. And I had this vision of flying the corporate fly in a corporate jet. bouncing around from city to city doing deals I don't I didn't really have a vision for what kind of deals I'll be making. But just and then one day, flying back to my little town, Alabama, and having a street named after me. So Wow. As you can probably tell, I was really thinking about the vanity metrics at the time.

Nicoa Coach: 4:13

Right. Well, was that the American dream that you had kind of picked up on on your own?

Ben Fanning: 4:19

Or I think so. I think having a big block phone, maybe like the Gordon Gekko guy on Oh, yeah, you know, in Wall Street. And let's just say through a lot of twists and turns. I finally had the corner office in New York, it was a lot smaller than I imagined and I didn't get I've got the foliage it a few times. Not a lot. But it wasn't what I thought it was going to be. I was burned out, hated my job. I was living in one of the most expensive cities in the world. So I felt trapped really like I couldn't quit, but I couldn't stay. And I felt like I was at a crossroads. And fortunately, through a lot of good mentoring and A lot of self reflection, I and get it at a moment either I got fired by my therapist in New York because I never thought I would ever have a therapist. Because I'm going to group Alabama therapists were sort of looked down upon. In New York, apparently, everybody has one. And in my my one day, he's like, been in a house going in there. And I will complain every single time, and I would leave there feeling a little better. But every step I would take back to the office just felt more and more stress and frustration entering my body and mind. And one day, I went in there, and I was complaining, and he stopped me mid sentence. And he said, Ben, do you know what your problem was? And I thought, finally, this guy's going to earn what I'm paying him. And he just said, you hate your job. There's really nothing I can do for you, you got to go figure it out. And wow, from that inflection point, what I realized was I just had to be more proactive in my career had to get to know who I was a little bit more. What was the work that I enjoyed doing? And what were the activities in life that almost sort of naturally gravitated towards? And what then thinking about what could I do to bring that into my workday, because as I mentioned, you know, we leave and so eventually, I was able to sort of work through this and the company, I was working in opposite executive coaching training, you know, with you out in Colorado. Yeah. And my company supported it, under the auspices of extensive leadership training, and boy, was it extensive?

Nicoa Coach: 6:44

Certainly was, well, before you get into that, then I want to go back because a lot of people have that same experience that you've had, where they're sitting, and maybe they're sitting there right now. And they're overwhelmed. They're burnout. They're on that, you know, wheel. How long would you say that it took you from the feelings of burnout, to actually making the change?

Ben Fanning: 7:10

Well, it's great man, that's a great question. Well, I would say the the frustration that I had, maybe I hadn't reached burnout quite yet. But I felt it early in my career. And the thoughts coming in my head, were always like, Man, I could do that job, I could do that vice president's job better than mine. And if I had his or her job, things would be so much better. And then I jumped through seven different companies, always taking the job for the next big paycheck. But I always found myself complaining a lot about everybody else. It was amazing. I tell people like I was haunted by ghosts, no matter what job I had always had a bad boss. Eventually, if the boss seemed good, when I got there, they always were bad or wrong with them. I always had bad customers always had bad co workers. And they always turn bad over time. The problem was never me. And, you know, it took a lot as I tell people, like I went to coach training, to first learn how to coach myself. And I thought I was there to learn to coach other people. And that's the big leg up ever, y'all and Nicoa knows us. If you ever go to executive coaching training, you're going to spend a lot of time initially facing all of your own problems that you didn't even know you had.

Nicoa Coach: 9:08

Well, that's for sure. I mean, good for you for being able to reflect on that and describe your experience because what you just talked about, is what I refer to in energy leadership is like energy attracting like energy. That's right. That is the truth. Yeah. And you ultimately we're continuing to react to each leader. I mean, what what was happening right, same circus, different tent, no matter what job you took, yeah, right. So you were tracking it was still there. And what was the common denominator? Then fanning

Ben Fanning: 9:44

colic common denominator, a common element was always me. And I really, it's such a simple idea. But I really realized I never really I came, I started to come around to that, that the day that my therapist fired me because I just sat on I remember, you know, on a bench in Manhattan thinking about like, what is happening now? Yeah. And by the way, call? Yeah, it was a really it was a wake up call. But I felt a little bit like Hey, I didn't feel I wouldn't say I thought a lot of initiative but I felt like okay, I've got to do some different stuff and think of think different thoughts that I've been willing to in the past and it probably took me a About a year to get to that point of zeroing in on other things that I enjoyed doing, and trying to bring them into my workday. And I had a couple of things when I came back. And from about probably midway through my coaching training, and I heard my boss complaining about how our group was terrible at meeting deadlines. And he was right. And he called it getting closure. We never we weren't getting closure, and it was so bad Nicoa That when I would go, report, do a group A, this is what we're going to do for your team. And here's where we're going to get it done by if I said, Hey, we're gonna get it done by June 1, they'd be like, ah, July 1 is fine. Like, they would pad our deadlines for us, because we were so terrible at meeting them. And this is a chance I have. So I was like, Hey, listen, I want to help our team get better closure and meet our deadlines. And I'm going to do a training for it. And he looked at me and he thought, well, he's like, how much do I have to pay for this bed. And I was like, Hey, this is part of my job, this is what I want to do. And so he gave me the blessing to go and create this training, it was four parts. And I rolled it out. And things of course started to improve, it didn't solve all of our problems. But it certainly put more focus on it and equip people with a lot of tools. And then the word got around, and I did it for a few other groups. And then finally, someone actually referred me to someone outside the company, which I couldn't believe I did a little moonlighting some of this. Yeah. So that was when I started sort of doing some training. And then I went to my boss, and I said, Hey, I want to do coaching inside the company more effectively. And I needed to be Emanuel goals. And he said, No problem. So I ended up having coaching people inside the organization. And then what I did was after I coached them, of course, I wasn't charging them anything because it was part of my corporate responsibility. But I would ask them in exchange to write a endorsement or test. And when I got that, it was so easy to add that to manual review, as well as I would email it out to other people. And it just that credibility inside the organization that, hey, they were getting meaningful results. It really propelled me forward in a lot of different ways. And then I decided to write a book about it.

Nicoa Coach: 13:02

I was getting ready to bring that up. Because what you're describing, I want to keep people on your path here for a minute. So when you made that ultimate adjustment to go to an organization that was a little less stressful than the one in Manhattan, so you ended up at Honeywell, I think it was. And that's where you started really doing the coach training. So it was something about that coach train that really helped highlight for you something you loved, something you were passionate about. So because you had said I didn't know what what do I want? What What am I trying to figure out here? But I'm glad you're about to mention the book, because what Ben is getting ready to describe everybody is that he his book is titled The Quit alternative. Is that right? I got that right?

Ben Fanning: 13:46

That's correct. Thank you.

Nicoa Coach: 13:48

Absolutely. And because what's beautiful about Ben's story is that he figured out how to observe himself and adapt where he was to something he wanted, unlike me, who was in a meeting on a Monday afternoon and quit my job when no plan. So, you know, a lot of people are like, well, Nicoa You're such

Ben Fanning: 14:11

a rock star.

Nicoa Coach: 14:13

We're now well say rock star,

Ben Fanning: 14:15

that will make a better movie than my moment. I don't like it took a long time. You're You're very like,

Nicoa Coach: 14:26

or maybe between me and you, the people who are listening that are ready. But maybe that need to take a long time. But it also doesn't need to be today. And I think maybe between the two of us our stories can help someone say, Well, how could I begin to hone something that's like a side hustle or a passion? And either do those or get out? So how did you manage to do both? And it sounds like it evolved. But then how did you decide to get out? Like why? Why leave?

Ben Fanning: 14:57

That's a great question. It was it was quite a journey. And I felt compelled like man, I would like to go do this full time. But I wasn't sure I can make money doing it or make enough money.

Nicoa Coach: 15:08

And you're used to you're married, you've got a kid you're married. And

Ben Fanning: 15:13

I felt like you know I I got used to corporate dollars and corporate benefits and the 401 K matching, and I think I discounted to how good it felt to be like Hey, I worked for Honeywell and in our own minds the culture You know, Honeywell is a people know Honeywell. Yeah, introduce yourself as, hey, I worked for Honeywell, it felt like at the time, like that was an important part of my identity. And I liked being asked like at the happy hour, well, who you work for. And if you've ever not worked for somebody, or work for a company, people don't know, or maybe be in between jobs. That moment sucks, right? It really stinks because you're like, you feel like your self worth is diminished. And I can remember, years before that, and this really drove that point home. I was getting married. And I was in between jobs, myself. And I had a few leads, but hadn't done. And I don't want to reveal the person but a certain family member, not my wife was like, well, when people ask you, Ben works for the wedding. What do we what do we say? And my wife looked at that person, like, What are you talking about? And she's like, well, I don't want him. I don't want I don't want people to think he's some kind of slacker. That person's heart was in the right place. Because I think that they don't, this person didn't, was a slacker. Right. Right. I didn't think I was I was hustling. Sure. But that person is concerned about the outer world. So I'm just saying that because that drives home the point. When you're working with a company, you have I think that's a really big challenge for people. So for me, I had that going and I discounted how big that was for me at the time.

Nicoa Coach: 17:10

That's big. I mean, that's between opportunities is what my dad likes to call be in between the jobs, right. But I can remember when you left when we said goodbye after the first time we met at Newfield network, and I had already quit my job. And you were going back to Honeywell, I don't know if you remember this. But as we were, you know, hugging and saying, bye, I was jealous of you. Because you were getting to go back into that corporate world. And I had given up the world of GE and Thermo Fisher and all these big identities, and I was out there on my own. And you're right, being able to get the confidence enough to say, Hey, I'm Nicoa, how can I help you? I was so insecure still, I named my company, Holland Archer, which you probably would have been the fourth kid if I'd ever had another kid. Instead of giving birth to a baby, I gave birth to a business. But it's because I've been in the corporate world. And I was looking at these consultants going, Yeah, you couldn't hack it. You're a consultant. And I was worried they think that about me.

Ben Fanning: 18:11

And Java, just let's just drill let's just pour salt in the wound to try getting your LinkedIn invitation accepted? If it does, no one knows your company. Yep. It's way more strategic and thoughtful. Because they're like, Who is this person? So it's like, it's, it's tough. And so I had all that going on. And I think

Nicoa Coach: 18:35

How did you get over it? How did you get over that insecurity?

Ben Fanning: 18:38

I was I took a more incremental approach. So I was like, Well, let me see how many coaching clients I can get outside of the company, not affecting and not affect my work day? Because they're past paying the bills? And can I grow my revenue doing that? And I was like, okay, yes, I'm getting I'm getting, I proved to myself that I could get coaching clients. And that can be paid effectively for that. And my coaching clients, were getting results. So that was the thing. But you know what, that still wasn't enough. I still didn't fully get it started the second one now, I want to see if I can do paid speaking engagements. And when I, you know what, I'm doing a couple of months, then that'll be enough. And I got that, and that was going well, I was traveling with that and taking vacation days and balancing corporate life. And it still wasn't enough. I still I never. I mean, I proved to myself that yes, I can make money. But there's so that I checked that box could have a thriving business, but I wasn't really willing to do it. It just took time for me to get to get to a place where I felt so compelled to do that. And I think I think the one thing that really put me over the hump, and this was the fact that I was like, Man, I'm splitting so much of my time between coaching and speaking and writing all this and my corporate life. What if I put all that time and energy I was putting into corporate life into my own business? And I can't I was like, You know what, and I actually journaled about it. I thought about it and like I really have no idea. And if I'm like, I'm never going to really know, unless I prefer the prover.

Nicoa Coach: 20:41

Verbally, unless you make the quit, right? It's been

Ben Fanning: 20:46

taught, right, like, I'll go all in. And what I found was shocking. Afterwards, I immediately had a creative energy boost, I didn't realize how I was spending so much time, mentally, even though I thought I was very, I'm a, I can be a very disciplined person. When I set my, my focus has always been this, I had two computers, that I would say, hey, this be ours here, this many hours here. But what I didn't realize was when I was working on my own business, my mind was still sort of worried about corporate effects. And I think once I released that capacity, and I really was able to step into this. I just felt a lot more creative energy, and boom,

Nicoa Coach: 21:39

you were doing what she loved. You

Ben Fanning: 21:43

know, I don't want to sugarcoat it for people and be like, Yeah, I met from that point on, my life became so much easier. No, because when you had your own business, you may think you're working hard at corporate, and probably your your people here are working hard. And I thought I was working really hard. And I was, but we have your own business. No, you're working harder, at least from my standpoint, and most of my clients that make this move, they end up working much harder, but you're working on stuff that's more aligned, yes, who you are, who you're becoming, and who you wish to be in the future. So it accelerates. It accelerates your personal growth and your professional growth in ways that you'll never be able to have otherwise. And you develop new relationships and unexpected ways.

Nicoa Coach: 22:41

I think you're talking about and inspired, you're more, you're in a state of inspired action and flow differently, when you're looking at the work is not only something to enable your lifestyle, but some meaning financially, whatever, but also enabling your creativity, and then it's growing you because the human being wants to expand. And you know, you have to really understand why am I doing this. And when we're in the corporate world, or in a company working for somebody else that can enable a lifestyle, and you have to come to terms with whether or not that's, that's going to be fulfilling for you, you have to make it fulfilling, I think what you described is two things where the mind goes energy flows. And you were splitting the mind, right, and to the point where you weren't as productive in either side. So you had one foot in one foot out at all times, when ultimately the goal was to you know, what, what do I want? Journal it like you said, Good job. I love that. How can I make that commitment to focus only on what I want? And once you did that, you said the creativity just float. You lifted and gave yourself permission to do what you wanted. And you weren't anchored by the other. The other piece that I'm hearing you say is you took response, ability, responsibility for what you ultimately wanted. And I love that because before that story where you're like, my boss was always bad. And dinner today that was reaction.

Ben Fanning: 24:15

Sorry. It was an interview. And to be honest, no, I don't think they were that bad.

Nicoa Coach: 24:23

No, it was you reacting to their behavior. But

Ben Fanning: 24:27

good lord, I was even less perfect. I didn't even realize it.

Nicoa Coach: 24:31

Well, I would be really curious. Let's go ahead and come into this world that you're in now. And, you know, again, you reference some of the tools that you use, you had therapy. You also did journaling. I think you also had a coach, right, even being constrained. My biggest advice? Yeah,

Ben Fanning: 24:51

multiple coaches. One of the greatest coaches my first coach Barbara Poole, who now retired. Sorry, y'all. She was awesome. I love Barb right. And she's loving life at Folly Beach. Yeah. But her her husband who has the same birthday is in his 70s and he is a rock and roll God and Charles. They play all the time at Foley. Anyway, Dave LeClaire and his his band safety third. Has you ever come to Charleston, you see safety third. you've ever seen a guy like this on the stage?

Nicoa Coach: 25:30

he's living his best life. He's doing what he loves. I wonder when he started doing that.

Ben Fanning: 25:35

He's a former corporate guy who's played music forever. Oh my god, I love that. Yeah, he's got a great band. But anybody? Well, yeah, Barbara was great. But I've had multiple coaches since that. And I tell people, you know, I coach people, you coach people, and I make that investment in myself, sometimes multiple coaches at the same time, because for me, it's always such a great way to get a tailored focus on where I'm hoping to go and where I am today. And it's kind of cliche, but it's so true. LeBron James has multiple coaches, he's the best basketball living basketball player still active right now. And, you know, so it just goes to show no matter how high your performance is, having a different set of eyes on the situation, can be so helpful.

Nicoa Coach: 26:33

Having that safe third party to help you help yourself, right. I mean, I never I tell people don't get a coach who doesn't have a coach? Because to your point earlier as well, we're always doing our own self work in order to figure out how to help others or do the work we're meant to be doing. Is there any reflection when when you think about your way of being, which is what we learned at the Newfield network, that ontological way of being, when you think about your way of being now committed to this new life, and you've been out on your own now for quite a few years? What is different about your way of being versus that overachiever bin, who was sitting in the corner office, wishing it was bigger?

Ben Fanning: 27:20

I think I was I think I protected a lot more when I was in corporate, I was always felt more paranoid, probably protected. What

Nicoa Coach: 27:28

do you mean by that?

Ben Fanning: 27:29

I was looking to protect my department, my team, my silo, my world? Because it was a mentality of, well, that person shouldn't get over here in our group. Because we're like a five term, right? We're fighting for power, and we're fighting for control are fighting for influence. So it was a very, you know, protecting my job. Yeah, I would never have said that at the time. You know, all of these things, right? So this this chain of command, you just really trying to focus on keeping it all together in this world. It's very, very futile, I guess, the mentality, whereas now Oh, another one, or like, also going to conferences, I would go to conferences. And I will kind of sit back in the room. I was kind of observe. And I wouldn't tell other companies. Other I wouldn't interact with certain suppliers because I didn't want to share what we're doing. Because we're, we're so innovative. We're, we're doing such big things. I can't tell anybody, I can't let the cat out of the bag. Now, completely different. Number one, when I go to conferences, it's about collaboration. I'm actively seeking and connecting. And I'm asking them, what projects are they up to, and I'm sharing mine. And we're looking for ways to help each other in a very expensive kind of way. And to every day, including on my podcast. It's about connecting and being open and being dynamic, and nimble and shifting and just a really different, different mentality. And it feels a lot better for me. And I realized how much energy I spent before in this sort of protection mindset. But when you had your own company, that's not a great way to be. It's not a way for growth and shifting and change.

Nicoa Coach: 29:42

I think that's a really amazing comparison because you just describe the difference between a catabolic energetic way of being when we talk about energy leadership, which is a big piece of the coaching I do, and that's the fighter, and the fighter says is a level two energy and it says, You know what, it's a dog eat dog world, and I better protect and I better make sure I win, and I'm gonna win no matter what. And then you shifted your vibration up to an anabolic way of seeing the world which is you know what, we're all in this together, and we can collaborate and synergy is going to is going to be what makes us successful. So that's a really important thing for anybody listening to reflect on. Are you stuck in that egoic catabolic energy? You know, I'm either a victim to my boss, right? Or I have to fight for what I want? Or have you lightened it up, right? It's time to lighten it up. Anabolically. And you can do that in the corporate world, in your own company, or wherever you are, and realize that being open is going to attract more of what you really want cray.

Ben Fanning: 30:48

I like that framework. I mean, that's really well stated Nicoa. And I want to emphasize what you said that I, you can have that mentality inside a corporate role. But a lot of times, you're going to be different than the culture and the people around you. And so, but I do think there are companies that are that, that do encourage that. And I hope in their leadership training, that they're really focused on that sort of mindset, a growth mindset. Yeah. To quote, Carol Dweck, but I don't think that I had it at the time. And I think if I was would have been able to have that modeled for me, or I felt like that was possible for me. I could still be in that. But I think at the time, I was so far from it, that I really needed to make that shift.

Nicoa Coach: 31:43

Yeah, I think I feel the same way. Yeah, you You're an excellent role model for going through what many people go through. And I'm just really proud of you and the success that you've had. I'm going to give you the last minute or so to share with us everything that then that you've been working on, and anything you want to tell us. Send us to some of your podcasts what what would you like to share with those listening today about what's going on with you?

Ben Fanning: 32:11

Well, I think one of the things that's really become important to me, and I feel like it's bringing together my corporate past, my enjoyment of communications, and PR and social media and communication and whatnot, bring it all together with a podcast and helping leaders not just communicate their leadership message and mission on our show. But sometimes it makes sense for their companies to take the next step to do that. And I believe that podcasting, you know, light like you're pursuing, I believe this is one of the greatest times in history for leaders to communicate their leadership message because of things like podcasting, because it's the only social medium that's available, where you can do multitasking, and where you can embrace multitasking. And listen to Nicoa and Ben and talking on a on a frequent basis. And then the problem is that your employees, your team, they're on social media, you know, they're on LinkedIn right now. They're looking up clips about Brene, brown and Simon Sinek. Can all these people, why not you leader, people on this show like, or even worse, maybe they're listening to the message of your competitors, recruiting companies, you know, get in their social media feed. And it may seem a little awkward at first, but you can do it. And it's just so important.

Nicoa Coach: 33:48

And you're helping so many people do that right now. I think that's phenomenal. I wish that we had some of that access to our leaders thoughts. When we were in those corporate environments, maybe we would have had a greater connection, human connection with our leadership so that we weren't feeling so victim to their behavior, or we can have a better understanding of where they're coming from. And, and I love that about the work that you and I have gone through with the Ontological Coaching and the Newfield network, we have begun to become the observers of ourselves. And you shared with us today a beautiful way in which you observed yourself to a space now where it looks like you're doing really well. You're happy. You have this beautiful family. You've got a life by design that I know you'd like to take vacations, but sounds to me like you're having a lot of fun. And you don't even need a vacation from this new life. Is it? Am I right?

Ben Fanning: 34:42

Well, I love adventure. So I love a good vacation. But yeah, I mean, this whole idea of making your vocation your vacation or your vacation, your vocation, I'm not as Oh, that was that. Something like that? I don't know. explain something like that. You'll never work a day in your life. Exactly. Know about that. I do think that when we have irritations in our work, or say we're going through podcasting, you'll discover that certain party parts of the podcasting experience you don't enjoy, maybe it's the editing or it's the booking or whatever it is to be. And that's like a sign from the universe, that you need to find a team to help out. And so to help take those parts, like it's kind of a constant flow and discovery over what we like and We don't and then using our skills to be great collaborators. And that does make it better. But yeah, we all have moments where we have to grind a little bit. That's true. Well, but you know about grinding? For sure.

Nicoa Coach: 35:46

I think we need to start thriving. Thank you. I don't care where you are. But if you need help with your podcasting, or your own leadership, team development, please call Ben fanning been, you have been phenomenal. I love you so much. I love sharing holiday cards with you and your beautiful family. And it was hard. It's one of my favorite creative outlets. I think this

Ben Fanning: 36:09

year's Hey, I think yes, hey, this year, it was croquet,

Nicoa Coach: 36:13

the whole the whole crew. We've got you know, six kids between John and me. And we had a team for sure. Hey, Ben, any last words of wisdom for those who are listening to Coffee with Nicoa today?

Ben Fanning: 36:28

Last word would be to be proactive in your pursuit of happiness and life.

Nicoa Coach: 36:40

Well, thank you for role modeling that for all of us, and especially for me, you're my good friend. And Ben, I thank you so much for being with me today. Thanks to cool. Thank you, Ben. That was absolutely phenomenal. And my favorite part of your story has everything to do with the fact that your therapist fired you. And yeah, it's because your therapist wasn't a coach of everybody listens. And don't forget to subscribe, and make sure you follow Ben Fanning and his podcast lead the team.

Unknown: 37:11

Hi, there. Just a quick note that if you're enjoying this interview, then you're going to love Ben's podcast, lead the team that's now in the top 2%. Globally, you'll discover the success strategies of the world's most innovative leaders. Plus, you'll get their hard earned costly leadership lessons. Check it out. Thanks for joining us for a caffeinated conversation. Subscribe to Coffee with Nicoa for more stories from people living a life by design. You can also find inspiration on Instagram. Just follow coffee with Nicoa and check out our website Coffee with nicoa.com and that's Nicoa N I C O A. We look forward to talking with you soon. And enjoy your coffee between now and then.